tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post4484893101845772254..comments2024-02-18T00:24:05.514-08:00Comments on The Zoë-Trope: WHAT WOULD MARY SUE DO?Zoë Marriotthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-11045625301714111422016-04-08T07:01:03.081-07:002016-04-08T07:01:03.081-07:00This is a great post. it makes me feel a little gu...This is a great post. it makes me feel a little guilty though as most of my female main characters are redheads (like me). lol! They are nothing like me in other respects though, so I suppose I can rest assured that I am not falling into the character-as-wish-fulfilment mistake. ;)Becky Fyfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01595020500346331076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-63048994709010650942016-02-03T21:48:28.428-08:002016-02-03T21:48:28.428-08:00Lovely post. It is yet again sadly made relevant ...Lovely post. It is yet again sadly made relevant by accusations that Rey is a Mary Sue. I wanted to point out that Star Wars is an unapologetic epic, with obvious and predictable (and enjoyable) tropes that allow an exaggerated evil character and a prodigiously good and talented hero. Rey is no exception.Amandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16820262650185957252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-25267061035839135282014-04-13T03:03:35.968-07:002014-04-13T03:03:35.968-07:00Know this is a latey McLate comment, but just foun...Know this is a latey McLate comment, but just found your blog and have thoroughly enjoyed your perceptive (and positive) insights.<br /><br />The issue about the term Mary Sue coming to mean the opposite of what is actually intended - i.e. a real female, in whatever myriad form she may take - is quite enlightening. <br /><br />I definitely had a lightbulb moment at that point. <br /><br />That bit of 'Society' only wants fake (restricted to being eternal 2D sidekicks and sexy lamps) women. <br />Then the moment you try and step outside of that limitation, you or your characters are branded as Mary Sues* in order to keep you in line.<br /><br />So the real Mary Sue is the world of socially-imposed female role models, whilst real females just carry on doing their thing being, you know, real.<br /><br /><i>So white is black, black is white and "Mary Sue" = (Mary Sue.exp-1).</i><br /><br />Figures.<br /><br />S'cuse me whilst I go and do some wonderfully badass sciencey stuff IRL that of course fictional wimmin could never do, because of..er...reasons.<br /><br />*NB. Sadly, many other pejoratives are available ;)mooshnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-57355146541456145332014-03-09T12:23:28.967-07:002014-03-09T12:23:28.967-07:00just read the NY TImes article you linked to. Ragi...just read the NY TImes article you linked to. Raging sexism and stereotypes of "girl's books."thzknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-78619979821091101132011-11-05T12:32:53.588-07:002011-11-05T12:32:53.588-07:00Thanks, thanks, a thousand thanks for pointing thi...Thanks, thanks, a thousand thanks for pointing this out and pushing that point as far as it could go. Because you are so right, and people are so ignorant that sometimes it makes me cry. <br /><br />Especially the people who think they're "feminist" when actually they're so immasculated (technical term: basically means 'so far in the Male Gaze they have no idea they're in the Male Gaze') that they can't see the sexualisation for the trees.<br /><br />Have you ever seen Feminist Frequency? (http://www.feministfrequency.com/) She does some great "Tropes against Women" stuff that I think could dovetail quite nicely with your interests!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-32382237133247610752011-10-29T09:47:03.106-07:002011-10-29T09:47:03.106-07:00Megha: I think you have a really good point. Maybe...Megha: I think you have a really good point. Maybe after the character is reflected in so many other books, people start to think of them as unoriginal, and blame the person who wrote the original character...? I think that might be what you're getting at. I can see where you're coming from. :)Isabelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11342147057396470743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-20846735997116627632011-10-29T08:58:04.772-07:002011-10-29T08:58:04.772-07:00So I was looking at your original Mary-Sue post an...So I was looking at your original Mary-Sue post and thinking, well, Hermione, Mae and Clary definitely aren't Mary Sues. And that made me think - although these characters are original and wonderful, when more and more characters are 'born' in newer books by some not-very-good author, that are replicas of Hermione or Mae or Clary or any other original and wonderful characters, THEY are the ones called Mary Sues.<br /><br />Basically-<br /><br />We have Hermione. She's a wonderful and rich (not wealthy, rich as in complex, sophisticated and thought out) character. And then we have the dozens of books that have literal replicas of Hermione. And these replicas are the ones that are called Mary Sues, quite rightly.<br /><br />Because I also think that apart from your wonderful list of what a Mary Sue is, it can also be a character that is just a replica of some other awesome character from some other awesome book.<br /><br />I don't know, maybe that just seems the definition to me. But when I think of a bestselling book with a character who EVERYONE is crazy over, I find their clones in less popular books Mary Sues. Or at least, replicas.<br /><br />Of course, I'm not saying that having similar characters in two different books is not allowed or something. I mean, if you don't know that there's a character just like yours, you can't be blamed for writing a similar character.<br /><br />However, when we have characters from books that are bestselling and LOTS of people have heard of, and your character turns out to be exactly the same as the character from the bestselling book, you can't NOT expect your character to be labelled as a Mary Sue.<br /><br />Now, I don't know if that's a Mary Sue or not. But I do know that it's a fault and certainly not a good thing in a character, so I thought I might as well comment about it in this wonderful characterisation-related post.<br /><br />I know you said that the term Mary Sue is NOT an opinion, so I'm just going to say that replicas are NOT what I think Mary Sues are, but I think they're, uh, a part of... Mary Sue-ism. You know, something that *I* would ADD to your list, because your definition IS correct, only this is a little extra thingy that I thought about.Megzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08664110589451892977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-78856876469471621712011-10-29T00:37:15.963-07:002011-10-29T00:37:15.963-07:00Kassem: You're not alone. The second that most...Kassem: You're not alone. The second that most men and a majority of women hear you talking seriously about sexism they go into 'La la la, I'm not listening' mode. No one wants to admit that this is the reality. And if you try to make them see it, they turn on you. I'm so glad that you found a sense of solidarity in reading these posts.Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-71308589892602051422011-10-28T16:23:24.162-07:002011-10-28T16:23:24.162-07:00One of my pet peeves in all stories told - written...One of my pet peeves in all stories told - written or on TV, is the representation of women and/or the reaction to strong female characters (rare as they are). I nodded my head throughout most of both blogs and had many "I'm not alone' awakenings :) What makes it even more frustrating for me is the reaction if I try to discuss these thoughts with anyone. I am told that I am just an ugly/jealous/old/boring woman desperate for a man and often in the same breath that I hate men or even my own gender- go figure!<br />Thank you for writing such a well written, honest and brave article. I look forward to reading more on your blog in the future.Kassemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07006252262756954742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-12884675298110128652011-10-28T07:04:38.915-07:002011-10-28T07:04:38.915-07:00Moonspinner: Oh, you've put your finger on it ...Moonspinner: Oh, you've put your finger on it *perfectly*! As if there aren't plenty of rubbish books by blokes out there, with self-insert characters - people just call them rubbish and move on. They don't feel the need to seek out the author and villify them on a personal level. I find comments on SM's appearance to be distasteful in the extreme. Not only is it cruel and horribly sexist, it's irrelevant; if SM was a blue-eyed blonde would that make them like Bella Swan better? No! It's so reductive.Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-17255135462337703262011-10-28T06:57:18.194-07:002011-10-28T06:57:18.194-07:00Female protagonists are being treated like cuckoos...<i>Female protagonists are being treated like cuckoos in the nest within their own stories.<br />And the more successful they become, the more female writers are being treated like cuckoos in the nest within their own industry.</i><br /><br />I found this part of the post very touching, very telling of current 21st century attitudes: the idea that the Mary Sue brush is not just used to paint the readers’ perception of female characters but the mainstream’s perception of female writers… the idea that successful female authors – particularly those authors who achieve success by writing “girly books” are regarded as cuckoos in the nest. I see this attitude directed a lot at the Twilight phenomena: it isn’t just taken as a “matter of fact” that the Twilight books and movies are “rubbish” but it’s taken as a matter of fact that Meyer is a silly (and fat) non-writer* who got “lucky” by self-projecting herself in the Bella Swan character and sharing her sick fantasies with the rest of the world, and all the young, impressionable girls out there really need to be protected from her dangerous literature because we all know how (stupid) easily influenced female children are. <br /><br /><br />*according to Stephen King who goes from once saying, “if you write, then you’re a writer, that’s all there is to it” to saying “Stephenie Meyer isn’t a writer. Her books are rubbish.” Of course, he praises JK Rowling’s writing in the same breath so yah, for a man raising up one woman at the expense of another, right?moonspinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03156556341588649710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-37269333242484273662011-10-27T06:37:55.937-07:002011-10-27T06:37:55.937-07:00Isabel: Thanks! I'm glad it all made sense.Isabel: Thanks! I'm glad it all made sense.Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-21339336667595838712011-10-27T06:33:58.102-07:002011-10-27T06:33:58.102-07:00Wow, this is amazing! I'd never quite thought ...Wow, this is amazing! I'd never quite thought about it this way before, but I agree with you entirely. Completely awesome post, Zoë! :)Isabelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11342147057396470743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-58120220733283140922011-10-27T00:19:31.829-07:002011-10-27T00:19:31.829-07:00Diana: Thank you - I'm glad that you like them...Diana: Thank you - I'm glad that you like them and find them useful.<br /><br />Robin: Excellent. I know what you mean about the cringing feeling. I really wanted to isolate it and give it form. Thanks for saying that about DotF too. There's a companion novel to that coming out next year, which I ought to be able to post the cover and synopsis for soon :)Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-73378029633291122592011-10-26T18:22:40.634-07:002011-10-26T18:22:40.634-07:00Very interesting post! I've been cringing late...Very interesting post! I've been cringing lately when that phrase is tossed around, but couldn't put my finger on why. Now I know--thanks! I just discovered your book "Daughter of the Flames" and loved it. I'm really enjoying your blog, too--great work!Robinhttp://robinkristoff.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-12187912198739562582011-10-26T17:01:33.727-07:002011-10-26T17:01:33.727-07:00Wonderful, awesome, touching, inspiring series of ...Wonderful, awesome, touching, inspiring series of posts.<br /><br />Thanks!DWRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06391438800426810251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-59686776615042177182011-10-26T11:39:19.861-07:002011-10-26T11:39:19.861-07:00Elissa: It's such a relief, isn't it? To k...Elissa: It's such a relief, isn't it? To know you're not alone and that other people see this nonsense to and realise how contradictory and stupid it is.<br /><br />That Mary-Jane pose article is HILARIOUS! Thank you for sharing it!<br /><br />Tere: I'm not sure I've ever read a character who didn't experience any peril, emotional or physical, in a story. Even Bella Swan and Anita Blake do!Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-40476187547974941042011-10-26T11:36:39.214-07:002011-10-26T11:36:39.214-07:00Valerie: Thank you! I kind of feel that too, but i...Valerie: Thank you! I kind of feel that too, but it might be a bit of an uphill battle, I fear!<br /><br />J.A. Cummings: YES! *Airpunch* That is exactly what I wanted to hear. Go forth and write your awesome ladies! Send anyone who hassles you to me, and I'll deal with them.Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-40342098727061846272011-10-26T11:35:11.119-07:002011-10-26T11:35:11.119-07:00CitizenJaQ: Just because something's always be...CitizenJaQ: Just because something's always been wrong, that doesn't mean people shouldn't try to change it, or that they can't be offended by it. And the idea that there's no such thing as a sexy male pose is a remarkably silly one. Go buy some gay porn and try to repeat it with a straight face. Women and gay men find all the same bits of a man's body sexy as a a straight man finds sexy about a woman's: bum, legs, chest & stomach. The poses up there show off those areas. It's just that no one would ever think of posing a man that way because it would rob him of his dignity and make him look like some kind of empty-headed sex-obsessed male bimbo. Anatomically uncomfortable and exploititive poses are only for the ladies - no one minds it if we look empty-headed and sex-obsessed.Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-79632321238010500122011-10-26T09:54:10.341-07:002011-10-26T09:54:10.341-07:00I do see the term being misused, mostly to denigra...I do see the term being misused, mostly to denigrate the author for writing something the reader found unrealistic. But a true Mary Sue, even outside the confines of fanfic, is a character who is never in true peril, and only there to satisfy the escapist desires of the author. I've read plenty of Gary Stues, too, perhaps more than the female equivalent. <br /><br />The outcry against boys not reading because there's nothing being written for them feels like hogwash to me. Boys who want to read have plenty of options, just as they always have. If they really want to search out books, they have plenty of venues to do so. Publishers do buy "boy" books, but they should not be held to task for putting more money into marketing "girl" books, since the demographic buys more books. <br /><br />CitizenjaQ, I think part of the "recent firestorm" has a lot to do with DC's reboot. We (women and girls who like comics) were hoping that the newly rebooted female heroes would be treated more like, well, heroes, rather than tits and asses, which is how they've been represented since the Golden Age. 'Nuff said.Tere Kirklandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13562750950130316280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-75116592423528462982011-10-26T09:37:36.050-07:002011-10-26T09:37:36.050-07:00This.
All of this is why I love the internet - b...This. <br /><br />All of this is why I love the internet - because finding smart, like-minded people is shockingly difficult (as evidenced by the insane comments you linked to). <br /><br />It seems that people get all up in arms about male readers being overlooked are the ones who are willfully ignorant about sexism and male-privilege. One just has to take a look at the books that are assigned in schools or dominate the "Best Of" lists. Don't worry fellas, there are still thousands of books written by and for you. Just because female writers (and characters) have been given a voice in these past fifty or so years, doesn't mean that we're going to destroy the literature from the previous thousand years. <br /><br />It's a hysteria caused by those who have no sense of history or context, seeing a trend as a destructive agenda. Giving a voice to those who have been without one for so long does not mean we are silencing everyone else. But those who are the most threatened by this trend are usually those who benefit the most from sexism and are terrified that they would be treated the same way they treat women. And that's pretty terrifying to them. <br /><br />In the same vein as the superhero sexy poses, this (http://jezebel.com/5837476/internet-attempts-to-recreate-comic-book-characters-ridiculous-sexy-pose) was going around the internet a little while ago as well, in which people tried to recreate Mary Jane's insane "sexy sitting". <br /><br />I also second your love of Sarah Rees Brennan. She's a joy to read and a smart cookie to boot.Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09454308442495029111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-62153293405211782812011-10-26T09:16:39.893-07:002011-10-26T09:16:39.893-07:00Thank you for this post. For a very long time, I ...Thank you for this post. For a very long time, I have been afraid to write a central female character precisely because of these accusations of Mary Sue-ism that keep being slung around like mud in a political race. I needed this perspective.J.A. Cummingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12058503048276661594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-76177579133626677842011-10-26T08:49:57.838-07:002011-10-26T08:49:57.838-07:00*clappityclappityclappity*
I love this post SO MU...<i>*clappityclappityclappity*</i><br /><br />I love this post SO MUCH. It's making me want to "reclaim" Mary Sue and recast it as a positive term. Which might or might not actually be a good idea, but sounds like fun right at the moment.<br /><br />Bring on ALL THE LADIEZ with agency, good, bad, or confused!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12521352135257689565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-82444692270129101072011-10-26T07:21:05.215-07:002011-10-26T07:21:05.215-07:00I've been confused about the recent firestorm ...I've been confused about the recent firestorm over female comic book characters. Haven't they ALWAYS been oversexualized? And of course male characters look ridiculous posed the same way; what constitutes a "sexy" pose is different for males, because their bodies are different and the preferences of their partners are different. I'm not even sure there IS a sexy pose for males - as a straight man, I've never found one that works for me. Wonder Woman would look equally ridiculous with the bulging steroid muscles male comic book characters are given.<br /><br />As for Mary Sues - two of my mother's favorite Star Trek novels were <i>Dreadnought!</i> and <i>Battlestations!</i>, because they featured a female Lt. Piper, with Kirk and Spock & the gang relegated to supporting character status. I enjoyed them as a kid too, and it didn't occur to me until much later that they broke this Mary Sue rule. I'm currently on the second book of <i>The Hunger Games</i> trilogy and find Katniss skilled, smart and competent, but not unrealistically so.<br /><br />The best route to combatting the misuse of the Mary Sue term is probably aggressively pushing an alternative term, like Canon Sue. Doesn't solve the sexist issues though.John "jaQ" Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12094354696790169337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-13417129684850840382011-10-26T07:10:49.543-07:002011-10-26T07:10:49.543-07:00Jenni: Thank you! They weren't all that clear ...Jenni: Thank you! They weren't all that clear to begin with, though - I did about thirteen drafts AND got people to read it for me :)Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.com