tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post3517058958328634669..comments2024-02-18T00:24:05.514-08:00Comments on The Zoë-Trope: ULTIMATE FORM AND WHY IT DOESN'T WORKZoë Marriotthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-86326135602301450272012-08-14T00:25:17.289-07:002012-08-14T00:25:17.289-07:00Whispering: OMG that drives me INSANE. That whole ...Whispering: OMG that drives me INSANE. That whole 'oh, was is the devil! It's evil! It's *passive*!' thing is just pure nonsense. It doesn't even make sense grammatically - it seems to me it's grown up out of people who honestly have no idea what the technical passive voice is and WHY WE HAVE TO USE IT in order for things to make sense in the freaking English language. Gah! Pay no attention to that critique. I'm serious. Any critique which would tell you that poor inoffensive 'was' is unacceptible most likely has very little value.Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-27333588334626480882012-08-13T16:35:21.887-07:002012-08-13T16:35:21.887-07:00This is a brilliant post Zoe! I have to agree, so ...This is a brilliant post Zoe! I have to agree, so many books these day feel so emotionless and brittle.<br /><br /> Also all this show - dont tell advice really has affected my own writing. I feel bad now if I even have the word 'was' in my sentence as I won a critique once that advised me 'was' makes sentences passive when a story should always be active. However after reading this I feel much better about throwing in a few more 'was's - along with a bunch of adjectives and adverbs back into my story :)<br /><br />Thanks Zoe for always giving such great advice!whispering wordshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00817741839344053531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-18454177003489887212012-08-12T11:03:28.965-07:002012-08-12T11:03:28.965-07:00Megha: I try my best! And yes, I think you're ...Megha: I try my best! And yes, I think you're absolutely right. That's why so many people, of all ages, love YA so much. Because there's so much within that category, because genres are fluid and you can try anything you like so long as you make it WORK. The last thing we ought to be doing is getting in the way of that by narrowing down the definition of what YA should be. Many of my favourite YA novels are by no means fast paced, sparely written or short or adverbs and adjectives! Many of them make very good use of telling, too. So THERE, doubters!Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-53584402247198256992012-08-12T09:38:17.530-07:002012-08-12T09:38:17.530-07:00What I love about your blog is that you always wri...What I love about your blog is that you always write what's true! This is a great post, Zoe. You CANNOT define YA - or try to turn it into - fast paced books only. One of the greatest things about the YA genre, one of the things everyone loves is that there are no boundaries! By putting so many exceptions onto YA, it just kills the genre. I might enjoy fast paced books, but there are so many books I *adore* which are not very fast paced at all! Like your books, I love them in their forms as they already are.<br /><br />People are always going on about description and emotion in your writing, why do they also want to make everything so short and dead? BUT WE SHALL REBEL! XD No but seriously, publishers, WE LOVE DESCRIPTION: YA DOES NOT EQUAL FAST PACED BOOKS!<br /><br />;) Great post ZoeMeghahttp://meghaz.blog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-20521113454630785312012-08-10T04:47:33.418-07:002012-08-10T04:47:33.418-07:00Elyndra: That's the only way to be! Personally...Elyndra: That's the only way to be! Personally I think that when you're drafting (even if you're a planner, which I am) you need to leave any considerations of technique and should and would at the door. That's the point of drafting; you're supposed to try different things, make mistakes, get into a mess. The inner critic only needs to come out once you've finished and are editing and revising!Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-8511625824664524072012-08-10T02:17:58.573-07:002012-08-10T02:17:58.573-07:00Yes, that's what I was trying to say. I do agr...Yes, that's what I was trying to say. I do agree with you. Sorry I couldn't express myself more clearly. When showing and telling contradict each other, readers (or at least, readers who pay attention) will believe what they're shown, not what they're told (actual "proof" vs character's claims). So it all becomes confusing, frustrating, or just plain crazy.Alessandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06652990135572677170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-86255081049421350342012-08-09T23:26:53.156-07:002012-08-09T23:26:53.156-07:00Isabel: I got into such a stew trying to show EVER...Isabel: I got into such a stew trying to show EVERYTHING in Shadows that I got stuck for nearly 18mnths. That was one of the few times that my editor has said to me 'We need to cut this down'. Letting that piece of advice go was definitely painless!<br /><br />Rebecca: *Evil Laughter* Well, it's only right you should be torn between them - I was! Anyway, yes, it's important to be able to see that difference between showing and telling so that you can make wise choices on what to show and what to narrate. That's the way to get the balance right.<br /><br />Alessandra: Seems to me in that case, it's actually the showing that's at fault, rather than the telling! The author really WANTS their character to be badass, but lacks the skill to back that up. Bella in Twilight, for example, constantly says how bad a liar she is and how much she hates not telling the truth, and yet her first reaction in every sitauation IS TO DECEIVE PEOPLE - and she fools everyone. So much for being a bad liar. She states that she always talks to her mum about everything, but then reveals by her actions that this isn't true - her emails and phonecalls to her mother are patronising and untruthful right from the start. Basically, this is a case of bad writing, which throws away the virtues of both showing AND telling, and gives us the impression that the character is a sociopath!<br /><br />Sarah: That checklist mentality! I see it everywhere, and I think it's so depressing. Ten Rules to Land An Agent, Five Things That Make Agents Stop Reading, Twenty Things Every Writer Must Do. Blergh. You might as well paint by numbers.Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-35500929962129096072012-08-09T15:06:24.229-07:002012-08-09T15:06:24.229-07:00So refreshing to read such a common sense article ...So refreshing to read such a common sense article on this subject. And although that comment sounds like something a spambot would say, I did mean it! I am so tired of all the black-and-white advice out there. As if the craft of writing can be simplified into a checklist any idiot can follow.sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818420999930644450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-31064594101860403002012-08-09T14:58:00.937-07:002012-08-09T14:58:00.937-07:00What bothers me as a reader is when narrators TELL...What bothers me as a reader is when narrators TELL me something about the character while SHOWING me something that contradicts it. I'm not talking about unreliable narrators, which can be excellent if done right. I'm talking about, for example, a heroine described as bad-ass killer who whines about trivial things. <br /><br />To me, some telling is fine, as long as I don't have to suspend disbelief.Alessandrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06652990135572677170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-6754051418062315992012-08-09T14:34:12.350-07:002012-08-09T14:34:12.350-07:00Great post! I completely agree with all of your po...Great post! I completely agree with all of your points. Like you said, all the poetry and life is being taken out of "Ultimate Form" books.<br />The Mary-Beth part was quite useful to see. Because I'm still on my first draft I sometimes see myself telling instead of showing, like in that example. I don't realise I'm doing it until I look back over the last two pages I've written. That must be what second, third, fourth and fifth drafts are for, to fix those kind of mistakes.<br /><br />P.S, I finally got the chance to start Frostfire, today. I love it so far. I'm already torn between the two guys :DRebecca Lindsayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14971640548147042108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-8504186435757891822012-08-09T13:59:24.341-07:002012-08-09T13:59:24.341-07:00I agree with your point! I don't understand ho...I agree with your point! I don't understand how it's possible to *always* show, even when you're trying to be as concise and immediate as possible.Isabelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11342147057396470743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-2911164029669168152012-08-09T13:02:56.541-07:002012-08-09T13:02:56.541-07:00Nara: Someone said on Twitter - what would a moder...Nara: Someone said on Twitter - what would a modern editor do if they got their hands on LotR? Well, in addition to probably extending it into the LotR Saga (twelve books and counting) I imagine they'd cut everything out of it that we love. Especially the appendices. Your words on art are so exactly right. Yes, there's craft, yes there's learning your skills - but that doesn't mean wringing all individuality out of it.<br /><br />Emma: Thank you! I was afraid it was a bit rambling (I've been holding this one in for a while) but apparently everyone's willing to let me off! The thing is - all the advice I mention here is GOOD advice. But only in moderation! Just like 'Tell Don't Show' would be a very silly thing to insist on wholesale, so it 'Show Don't Tell'. I'm sure you've got the balance right :)<br /><br />Rebecca: It's a bit like wildflowers and weeds, I reckon. They're actually the exact same thing. The only difference between them - the only thing that makes a weed a weed - is a weed is growing somewhere the gardener doesn't want it. Same with adverbs, authorial intrusion, telling... they have beauty and value, used properly and in the right place.Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-59534940291054820072012-08-09T11:56:42.547-07:002012-08-09T11:56:42.547-07:00Thanks for a great post! It's nice to hear the...Thanks for a great post! It's nice to hear the other side of the "cut every single word possible, then cut some more" rule. I find myself weirdly in the center on this. My first drafts tend to be really wordy because I'm talking myself through the action and character reactions, so I say the same thing over and over again six different ways. But things like description don't come naturally to me as a writer, so I have to go back and add those in. Sometimes the word count of draft 2 is bigger than draft 1. Sometimes it's not. But you're completely right. Too many books get too sparse with their words and the reader misses out on some great depth that could have been added.Rebecca Harwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04977388354452454860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-49973727110611185532012-08-09T11:01:05.255-07:002012-08-09T11:01:05.255-07:00Fantastic post, Zoe. This is something I've st...Fantastic post, Zoe. This is something I've struggled with at times, as I write thrillers, so my writing generally *is* quite filmic and fast paced. I've really had to learn how to get a balance between the punchy, action-y bits and the slower, more atmospheric bits – which, as you say, are just as important! I love reading books which have this balance just right – apart from anything else, too much action with no let-up is exhausting to read!Emma Passhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18209194238119830841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-48162816668122850442012-08-09T10:51:45.785-07:002012-08-09T10:51:45.785-07:00I really really do agree with you. I've been t...I really really do agree with you. I've been thinking about this recently, and the thought struck - why is immediate, strimmed down writing any more proof that you're a 'talented write' than an abundance of gorgeous detail? Tbh, you just have to look back to the classics. JRR Tolkein and Jane Austen were by no means less talented because they tended to include A LOT of description and A LOT of background. It kind of kills the point if you say that writing is an art form and yet you still insist that people conform to the norm. Isn't art an expressive act? A personal and creative one? And doesn't that therefore also mean that art always comes varied, unique and in a multitude of forms?Naranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-24104728241644076162012-08-09T09:25:23.855-07:002012-08-09T09:25:23.855-07:00Q: That can really happen! So EASILY too, once you...Q: That can really happen! So EASILY too, once you're in that 'cut, cut, cut' mindset. At a sentence level it robs the idea you're trying to express of sense, vibrancy, beauty. At the novel level, it basically robs a book of its heart. Such a shame.Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-49256527627340802692012-08-09T09:23:09.260-07:002012-08-09T09:23:09.260-07:00Right now I'm a summer intern reading manuscri...Right now I'm a summer intern reading manuscripts for a literary agent. I remember being totally shocked the first time I read one that was actually too short; I remember sensing distinctly "She was revising this and cut too much out!" It was a turning point for me, because though I never thought that cutting was always the answer, I had never read anything that I knew had been trimmed too far back.Qhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08756447854917857756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-73446113403841248772012-08-09T06:15:03.237-07:002012-08-09T06:15:03.237-07:00Kelly: I think it's a combination of things. O...Kelly: I think it's a combination of things. One of which is that, perhaps because there's a lot of sharing work online now, a lot of advice forums where people ask for critque, there's been an over-reaction *against* certain common rookie mistakes that you're likely to see in work posted online, like over-writing, over-use of description, not knowing which scenes to dramatise and which to narrate. But that has caused us, I think, to go too far in the opposite direction - instead of hearing 'watch those adverbs' they hear 'NEVER USE ADVERBS' and so on. Ditto with agents and editors posting about what they like to and want to see: people take advice (like 'I don't like authorial intrusion') as iron-clad and almost cripple themselves to conform. And then because that's what is arriving in slushpiles - and because apparently publishing people prefer this screenplay style to the more florid one, possibly because it needs less editing! - that's what comes out and gets on shelves. So more young writers see that style and think that is the only style. And they go on to produce an even more extreme and exaggerated version of that. Sad, and frustrating!Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-36387864419256986052012-08-09T06:02:07.146-07:002012-08-09T06:02:07.146-07:00I completely agree with you. Books draw you in unt...I completely agree with you. Books draw you in until you know the characters like the back of your hand, whereas in a film you don't get enough time, or information about them, to truly understand what makes them tick. The detail, imagery and description are what makes books special and are what gives some of them such longevity.<br />It's also why I keep going back and re-reading The Swan Kingdom and Shadows on the Moon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-6747525403150349312012-08-09T05:23:27.257-07:002012-08-09T05:23:27.257-07:00Interesting. Do you think this push for Ultimate F...Interesting. Do you think this push for Ultimate Form is, in a way, to make it easier to sells books for adaptation to the screen?<br /><br />(As I noted on Twitter, this push reminds me of the on-going fight between Analytical (US) and Continental philosophers. Analytical philosophers eschew adverbs, adjectives, etc, and move towards almost mathematical language, whereas Continental philosophers still believe in the need for emphasis of emotion in their language.)Kellyhttp://www.kellyhills.com/blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-68306344202958955392012-08-09T03:57:46.806-07:002012-08-09T03:57:46.806-07:00Deva: I'm so glad that I'm not the only on...Deva: I'm so glad that I'm not the only one! I don't want to write screenplays, you know? There's so much stuff you can do in a novel that you just can't in a screenplay, so why cripple yourself that way? It's all about personal taste anyway.Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-84482352256516190522012-08-09T03:38:33.267-07:002012-08-09T03:38:33.267-07:00Bravo! I've been noticing an abundance of this...Bravo! I've been noticing an abundance of this "ultimate form" and wondering at it myself.Deva Faganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18258363660299633982noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-33155538106617254742012-08-09T02:54:46.449-07:002012-08-09T02:54:46.449-07:00Louisa: Thank you! And there are plenty of success...Louisa: Thank you! And there are plenty of successful novels now that have a destinctive voice, and authorial intrustion. I don't know why, if we have to try and fit our words to someone else's template, it should be James Patterson instead of Susanna Clarke...<br /><br />Tolly: Well, learning how to write in that style is useful. Somethings do work best as fast paced. Not not all things and not necessarily the things they tell you. You have to learn to trust you own judgement, I think.Zoë Marriotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01275368005359548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-82712916338098158142012-08-09T02:44:17.984-07:002012-08-09T02:44:17.984-07:00Wonderful post. It's reassuring to hear someo...Wonderful post. It's reassuring to hear someone else push for more description. <br /><br />But as I'm on a writing course at the moment I have to work to the 'fast-paced' rule at the moment. And I always feel I'm writing at break-neck sped. <br /><br />Oh for catching your breath once in a while.<br /><br />Thanks for this it was refreshing.EHillsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11231230836596906890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4098049071459822748.post-25914636736604220802012-08-09T02:22:20.387-07:002012-08-09T02:22:20.387-07:00Great post, I enjoyed this. I always worry about t...Great post, I enjoyed this. I always worry about the show don't tell thing, then I look back at 19th Century novels and beyond. There's an awful lot of telling going on and this gives me comfort!Louisa Reidhttp://www.louisareid.comnoreply@blogger.com